Setting Health-First Boundaries to Grow a Sustainable Business with Chronic Illness | Brenda Snow

Nikita Williams:00:00:00

You know what stops most of us from building the businesses we actually really want. It's not a lack of skill, which many of us believe is our problem. It's not a lack of experience, which many of us believe is our problem. It's the belief that we need to be extraordinary and know everything just to keep up and to create results. And when you're living with chronic illness, the pressure becomes almost suffocating because of our internal dialogue, the noise that we receive from the outside world, the conditioning. In this episode, our guest, Brenda Snow, built a business for 30 years. She scaled it to over 400 employees, and she successfully exited that company. All while managing Ms. Multiple sclerosis. And when I asked her how she did it, she says something that stopped me in my tracks. You don't need to do anything extraordinary. She says, just living with chronic illness in itself is extraordinary. And this, this conversation, Brenda walks us through the real journey. The grief, the anger, the acceptance that keeps cycling back and forth, the boundaries she had to set that felt uncomfortable. At first. I can totally re relate to this, and the way she had to give herself permission to work differently, not harder. She shares the exact moment she realized I always hired to my weaknesses. If there was something I wasn't good at, I found somebody who was, and she talks about something. We don't discuss enough how vulnerability is in a weakness in business. It's actually what builds the strongest teams. If you've ever felt like you're constantly starting over after a flare up, if you've been told you need to hustle harder or be more quote unquote, consistent. If you're worried that setting boundaries means losing clients or even your credibility, this conversation is going to shift something for you. Because Brenda didn't build a sustainable business by being super human. She built it by being human, by setting health first boundaries, by being honest about what she needed, and by proving that you can grow a business that works with your body, not against it. And if this conversation resonates with you, Brenda has also written the Amazon bestselling Diagnose, the Essential Guide to Navigating the Patient Journey, where she mapped out the emotional journey nearly every patient goes through. And how to find hope, rebuild, and create impact after a life changing diagnosis. So stay tuned as we get into it.

Brenda Snow:00:02:06

Just starting a business, you know, that's, that's, that's like an outlier statistic. It's a lot of things. I mean, I had good luck. I met the right people at the right time. I had a good idea, but you don't need to do anything extraordinary, just living with a chronic illness. In and of itself is extraordinary.

Nikita Williams:00:02:31

Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the Globally Ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online. I'm your host, Nikita Williams and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses. And trying to make a livable income. I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness to becoming an award-winning coach, or the flexible, sustainable online coaching business, I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting and growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and wellbeing, you are in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is business with chronic illness. I am really excited to have Brenda Snow on the show. We are going to talk about business and life and her new book, diagnose The Essential Guide to Navigating The Patient Journey. When I saw that episode, Brenda, I mean that title of your book I was like. Where was this? Back in 2000 and like, I feel like back in 2009 when I first got diagnosed with one of my first chronic illnesses, I was like, whoa. There wasn't a book. There wasn't a pamphlet. No, there was a diagnosis. And see you later. Here's some medication. You're good. Right, exactly. So please tell us a little bit about you. Like how would you describe yourself today? And we'll get into more about you.

Brenda Snow:00:04:30

Great. Well, perfect. Thanks Nikita for having me. Like you said, my name is Brenda Snow and I'm a person that's been living with multiple sclerosis for three decades now, so that has its own challenges. Anybody, even if your diagnosis isn't ms, you know, if it's any of these chronic conditions that just never go away. Mm-hmm. It's challenging. So three decades. Really because I was diagnosed with an illness, it started my journey to become an entrepreneur and a business woman. And I've founded my main company, but a few other things over the course of the last three decades in business, which has been. An incredible journey, and I know something you're passionate about. Yeah. Women in business. Me too. But especially being somebody living with a chronic condition. Mm-hmm. And then recently I became a published author this March of 2025. That's the year I think, right? Yeah. No,

Speaker 3:00:05:28

no.

Brenda Snow:00:05:28

And exactly what you said. It's the book that I wish that I had had. You know, when I was diagnosed and in my journey of working and dealing with patients over the last, you know, many years. It's something people have always asked for advice about. Mm. So when COVID came, I thought, let's take a stab at this. I didn't know anything about writing a book, but have learned a lot. So that's a little bit about me. I'm, you know, I love my, some of my hobbies are, besides reading, I like art and travel and so yeah. And try to maintain a positive outlook in spite of it all.

Nikita Williams:00:06:07

Yeah. Yeah. I mean. First and foremost, I always like to say to anyone who comes up a show who's like, yeah, I'm an entrepreneur and an author, and we list off all of these things, and they're like, oh, we also have chronic illness. It's like such an oxymoron. It's almost like, yeah, the two worlds shouldn't coexist, but

Brenda Snow:00:06:26

mm-hmm.

Nikita Williams:00:06:27

I am curious to know, as you've ventured over this, over three decades of living with mm-hmm. Chronic illness and living with multiple sclerosis. How would you break down like the emotional journey of living with chronic illness and building an empire like in its own space? Right? Yeah. How has that looked like for you?

Brenda Snow:00:06:50

Hard, yes. Tiring. Let's, yes. The joy of my life, you know? So I think. I think what I also wanna tell people, because you know, I've gotten and received a lot of positive feedback and props for building a business in spite of being sick. And I'm very flattered by that, and I'm very humbled. But I also like to add the caveat to it that, you know, this should not be the aspirational goal for everybody, right? Mm-hmm. Like I want people to feel really at peace. At where they're at in their chronic illness, because these stages change. You know? It is. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I mean, that's kind of an overused term, but I would never want anybody to feel less than.

Nikita Williams:00:07:41

Yeah,

Brenda Snow:00:07:41

because they didn't start a business or do something with their chronic illness because just. Starting a business, you know, that's, that's, that's like an outlier statistic. Mm-hmm. It's a lot of things. I mean, I had good luck. I met the right people at the right time. I had a good idea, but you don't need to do anything extraordinary. Just living with a chronic illness in and of itself is extraordinary. Yeah. So I really want people to. Take a deep breath and pat themselves on the back because life can throw a lot of stuff at you. Just the fact that you're getting on with getting on is amazing, really,

Nikita Williams:00:08:19

truly. Absolutely. And I, and I really feel that way. It really is true. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. This is not for everybody, like it's just kind of like. I'm sure, and I, I know looking at the premise of your book and looking at that, you really talk about the journey from the patient's point of view. It's not a memoir, it's not necessarily like your story, it's more about a collective of stories of what that looks like, right? Yeah. And. I really align with that with the show myself because it's like, yes, this is about business with chronic illness, because some people have decided I have more power in my hands when I have more control of my time, my flexibility and all of that stuff. Hundred percent living with chronic illness and making money. Right. And also it looks different in every person I talk to, and it's just like chronic illness, like our journeys are unique yet the same. Yeah. And so for you and your experience. First of all, just living with chronic illness yourself.

Brenda Snow:00:09:17

Yeah.

Nikita Williams:00:09:18

How have you found similarities and also challenges when you're looking at other patients and their journey? How has that affected your outlook, your perspective?

Brenda Snow:00:09:31

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I mean, early on with my ms, you know, the first three years were really debilitating,

Speaker 4:00:09:39

you know,

Brenda Snow:00:09:39

largely wheelchair bound and dependent on an, you know, an aid to ambulate, and I really wasn't even necessarily. Thinking about working again, I frankly, I had no idea how I was going to do that. As I started to get better and realized that I was a 30-year-old with a 5-year-old and at some point had a long life ahead of me and no way to pay the bills, that was when sort of the first seeds of what could it look like and what could it be? And you know, again, for me. I was very passionate about the state of healthcare and the state of chronic care, so I will never forget the year I turned 30. I was living in a long-term rehabilitation center. Everybody in there was over the age of 75 with end stage neurological conditions and. I just thought to myself, wow, you know, how am I gonna define my life? Like, how, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? And seeing nobody that looked like me, seeing nobody that had ms, nobody that was 30 years old was really where this seed got planted. Like Prego, pre-chat rooms of like, how do you have the power? A first person narrative storytelling. How do we get people together that have chronic conditions to sort of lift each other up? And that was sort of the genesis of what became Snow Companies. And we worked in the biotechnology space because also on my journey, I came to realize that while research and development in pharmaceuticals and therapeutics is amazing, mm, they could probably show up a little bit differently. For patients. And so I couldn't believe that, you know, I was gonna have to take a medication potentially for the rest of my life. And it's like you said before we started recording, you know, they didn't even hand you a pamphlet. You know, you got, you're diagnosed with this and good luck. Yeah. So that was kind of the same thing. I had no idea how to manage the side effects or what was gonna happen to me. I mean, everything about me had changed. I call it, you know, an identity earthquake. I didn't look the same. I didn't think the same. I didn't feel the same. And nobody around me knew how to act either. Yeah. You know, there is stuff in this book for care partners because your world is rocked. Mm-hmm. So I think. What you learn as you live with a, a life changing condition is how to sort of handle the seasons, the ups and downs, the detours. Yeah. Better, differently, more proactively. But again, it takes some time. What I'm able to do now when I have a hiccup is very different than how I felt emotionally and physically and mentally prepared 20 years ago.

Speaker 2:00:12:45

Yeah.

Brenda Snow:00:12:46

So again, people have to just give themselves some grace.

Speaker 2:00:12:49

Yes. You know, that's such a powerful point to the perspective of there is no one and done fixing. Like there's not a really a fix. You know? I know some of us. Compare ourselves. Mm-hmm. Look at other and be like, man, she does that thing, or she's doing that thing while she's living with chronic illness. I often get in my dms personally, like, Nikita, how are you doing all of this? Yeah. And I always, I'm like in the bed crying. I'm like saying, I'm like, I'm not doing it. The social media, and I think for me, and I'm sure for you, Brenda, when you first started this journey, like social media wasn't necessarily a thing. No. No. Right?

Speaker 5:00:13:30

No, no.

Speaker 2:00:13:32

How has the visibility of chronic illness become so different from when you began snow companies and dealing with your own challenges with your chronic illness, like transform between now and between then and now?

Brenda Snow:00:13:48

That's great. Well, it's a wonderful question, and I feel like we're still in its infancy of getting rid of the disgrace, the shame, the stigma around chronic illness or life changing illness, frankly. It annoys the heck outta me that, you know, people do make a judgment against you. The stories Nikita, and I'm confident you've heard them too, over the decades I've been doing patient work of people. You know, losing their job that's illegal. Mm-hmm. You know, getting terminated from it. Getting canceled from their insurance, not being allowed insurance, not having access to Medicaid, Medicare, you know, so, long-term disability benefits, you know, can't have access to a physician, underserved patient populations. Mm-hmm. I mean, all this stuff is real and it's bloody hard. Mm-hmm. It's really hard. And when you are sick. And you don't feel good. It's almost darn near impossible. Mm-hmm. To navigate. I talk about this in the book, but why I like that more people are speaking out. Why I like that there's these podcasts and there's social media, and in the field of ms, you've got people like Christina Applegate and Selma Blair. Mm-hmm. You know, coming out and owning it, I mean. I remember there was a time where nobody of a person of visibility

Speaker 4:00:15:11

mm-hmm. Would

Brenda Snow:00:15:11

share that they have anything. And I was even early on told to hide it. Mm-hmm. And anybody that knows me knows, like, I'm me. What you see is what you get. Yes. All the time. Every time I'm, I've always been my authentic self and I sat there looking like this advice person at three heads. It's like, what do you mean I wouldn't tell anybody? Right. But they said, well, you, you'll risk. Being basically, you know, before the term was a term canceled. Mm-hmm. And, but I went, go against the grain, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that's, again, one of the things I feel very proud to do is hopefully have inspired other people to say. You know, there is nothing wrong and I did not do anything to deserve this. Don't feel guilty. You didn't do anything, deserve it. Your family didn't do anything to deserve it. Mm-hmm. To the contrary, I like to say that when you live with one of these terrible things, it means you're extra special.

Speaker 2:00:16:02

Yes. And creative and amazing and absolutely all those different things. Right.

Brenda Snow:00:16:09

Hundred percent girl. Yes. That's what I think. Yes.

Speaker 2:00:16:12

And you, and you talk about. In, in the book about the phases. Mm-hmm. I have, so I don't know if you've heard me talk about this or if you've listened to this show. Yeah. But I have an idea of, I, I call it three phases, and this is just my like very drilled down fundamentals of what I feel like Yeah. Especially those of us living with chronic illness go through, because I personally went through my own journey with that, right? Mm-hmm. And so I call it like the newbie phase of like, you don't know what's going on with your life. Yep. Yep. You just know you woke up one day, likely you had a normal life, and then all of a sudden you didn't, and you're like, correct. What the heck is going on? Yep. So that can happen for years. And a part of your journey has been like you were misdiagnosed, believed, didn't know what was happening. Mm-hmm. You know, and then you get to an. An awareness, I guess a diagnosis in a way. Yeah. And then you're kind of like in this phase of like, okay, now what? What is my life? Mm-hmm. I call this like mm-hmm. The awareness haze. Like what are we doing? Yeah. What's happening? Right. It's a good one. Yeah. And then I call the last phase, which really is never a last. Right. It's the OG phase where you know, you'll just keep repeating those two faces over and over again. Yeah,

Brenda Snow:00:17:26

exactly. Exactly. So repetition.

Speaker 2:00:17:29

Right. And so I'm curious, you talk about the emotional phases, the emotional journey of those of us living with chronic illness. Yeah. I'd love for you to share a bit about what did that look like in your own personal journey?

Brenda Snow:00:17:41

That's great. Well, I love your three phases and I think they fit perfectly into the way that I see it as well. So, you know, in the book the chapters are, are, are set up exactly like this. And in that, you know, I start off in this pre-diagnosis phase because so many people know there's something going on with them, there's something wrong. And I've seen sort of two things happen. The denial card. Mm. And I, and I like to say, we're not talking about the, you know, the river in Egypt. Right. It's not the, yeah. Okay. So, so the denial where it's like, I'm just overtired. Mm. It's because I didn't eat right yesterday. So. 'cause you don't really, it's scary to be like, what could be going on. So there's kind of people stuck there. And then there's the other place where like they know something's going on. But again, they can't get to the right place to get the diagnosis, whether it's an access problem or you know, a whole host of things. So really, this is where you need to listen to your inner voice. Mm-hmm. Man, usually that little voice is bang on, so if it walks like a duck, quack like a duck, it's usually a duck. So if you're feeling crummy, really try to stay the course because I say while. Hearing the words, you have ms. Or you have breast cancer, or you know, you have a LS, whatever it is. It is a terrible day. I'm not gonna sugarcoat that.

Speaker 5:00:19:12

Yeah. But

Brenda Snow:00:19:12

it's also the first day that you have a plan that can start to form. Mm-hmm. That you have some choices that you don't even see yet on the horizon. Hmm. So that whole pre-diagnosis and diagnosis phase. Really then sets off that journey. And I think the next phase that I talk about is grief.

Speaker 4:00:19:35

Mm.

Brenda Snow:00:19:36

You know, there's a lot of grieving Yes. That happens to you as an individual. I know from my own personal experience, I was so caught up in the grief of what my life wasn't gonna be. Mm. All the things that I lost. Mm. All of the. Doom and gloom. And you know what? It wasn't until years later and sitting down and writing this book again that I realized, although those things were not even true.

Speaker 4:00:20:03

Mm.

Brenda Snow:00:20:04

They, you know, they weren't even things that had happened. Yeah. They were all these, this, this catastrophic thinking.

Speaker 4:00:20:09

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Snow:00:20:10

So like, yes, grieve that something's happened to you, grieve that there's changes, there's changes in your home, your abilities, some of your relationships, again, your work. But that grief. Is a normal part of the process. Yeah. And as you let it, as you feel it and you and you start to kind of move through it, you will get to a place that gets better for yourself and your family. You know, anger happens. I was really you. A word I can't say on the podcast. I was really mad. And and for me, I harness that anger, like as action. Mm-hmm. Different for different people. Don't stay in anger too long. Mm. Because it can be like a really ugly weed in the garden and then you're gonna, you know, start to work your way to acceptance. And I think it's when you can. Start to normalize your new normal. Mm, which again, is very hard is when you can see that there might be some brightness and some beauty and some significant positive changes for yourself. Mm. But you're gonna have to go through that muck at first. And as you perfectly said. This is sometimes a rinse repeat, right? Yes. Just because you kind of feel like maybe for a few weeks you worked through grief, it doesn't mean that it ain't ever gonna come back. Exactly. And that there's not gonna be a time you feel totally bummed mm-hmm. About this happening to you. So I think the more you can kind of like understand that these things are predictable mm-hmm. The better off you're able to cope with it.

Speaker 2:00:21:57

So good. I love that you said that. 'cause I say, I'm like, when you live with chronic illness, Brenda, and you and I both know this, like a part of the fear. And I think also sometimes the false aspect of this is thinking. My life is gonna be so uncertain and unpredictable that I can't have any control. Like I can't plan, I can't do all of these things a hundred percent. And I have found like, well, I already know my body's gonna do what it's gonna do. And that is more than most people have where they just wake up one day and they're in the hospital. And we all probably experience that at the very beginning of the stages. But after some time, you know, okay, I'm heading into a flare up, or this is about to happen. Yeah. And you can create your life. To some way sustain that.

Brenda Snow:00:22:42

Right. Ex. Exactly. That's perfectly said. And that's that newbie phase that you were talking about. That's the reassurance I think that podcasts like this and the book can help give people, is to know that that part will get better. Right? Yes. Because it's really, it is scary and it's overwhelming and people. You know, it's, it's talked about more today and I, I love that some of the younger generation is like more tapped into it. Mm-hmm. And that they, they get the vibe, but you know. Vulnerability is hard.

Speaker 2:00:23:13

Yes. It's,

Brenda Snow:00:23:14

you know, vulnerability is hard and you're gonna become, you're gonna get a masterclass in it real quick, real quick. Yeah. You're, you're gonna get a masterclass. And again, it's one of the things I think if you can kind of, sort of absorb that, like the art of it and be vulnerable and let people show up for you in ways that maybe you never would've before. I have control issues too. So, this has been a big part of my learning process. There's a lot of beauty in that. Mm-hmm. There is. It's and a lot of stress relief. Mm. And you know, you don't need to put extra stress on yourself when you're living with a chronic condition.

Speaker 2:00:23:54

So true. Mm-hmm. I'm curious, you know, you just, you share like, it's a lot of stress and it's a lot of, a lot of these things. I mean, first of all, we're talking about just the, right now we're just talking about life with chronic illness, like Yeah. What that looks like in the phases. But when you got to this space. Brenda of like, okay, now I need to take care of my family. I need to take care of me. And also going through that forever loop of those emotions. Mm-hmm. How did you, like, can you walk us through how you managed your business during like these intense phases?

Brenda Snow:00:24:31

Yeah. You know, that's that wasn't always easy. And I think it's, it's like, again, like we're saying, it got, I got better at it. Mm-hmm. As time went on, I think one of the biggest pieces of advice, you know, I would give to female founders or entrepreneurs or, you know, anybody out there wanting to do that is, I had a lot of passion for what I wanted to do, so I think a lot of that. It wasn't just sort of like a job to me. Mm. It was really a more of a feeling of like, I, you know, I kinda wanna change the world and I wanna make a difference. And so I think for me, that created a lot of energy. Mm. And helped sustained. Some of those fatigue times for me. So I would say whatever you're thinking about doing and building, make sure that it does align to your passion, your core values, you know, what you believe in, whether it's a product or a service. Because to be successful at it, you're gonna have to pour in. Every waking minute of yourself. And sometimes that might not be as many hours as somebody that isn't living with a life changing illness. So first of all, make sure it's something you really like. Yeah. Make sure it's something that you really wanna do. And then. Be good about setting your own boundaries. It's hard, and I'm gonna be really honest with everybody. I wasn't great at it at first. Mm-hmm. You know, I wasn't, I sometimes I was like those stupid EverReady bunny commercials that, you know, that wanted to keep going and going and going, going, and I had gone too much and then I set myself up for a big attack or two weeks in beds when it maybe could have just been a day.

Speaker 5:00:26:18

Yeah.

Brenda Snow:00:26:19

So be get real with conserving your energy. What your boundaries look like. There's gonna always be I think whether you're sick or not in startup mode or in early growth years of your business, there's gonna always be a naysayer. Of course, there's gonna always be somebody to tell you all the reasons why it's not gonna work and all the reasons why, you know, it's not, and like, keep that in context, right? Mm. Some of it might be good advice, but if it's. A person that's kind of saying those things maybe because of jealousy or ulterior motives, or they, they don't understand your condition and they just think you're a sick person. Drown out that noise, man. Mm-hmm. You know, those are people that definitely put your boundaries. Those kind of people in my life were not people that stayed in my inner circle. Mm. They were not people that I leaned into. They were people that I leaned away from. Mm-hmm. So I think, I think that's something to, to think about as well. And again, back to me, I can only say I am. Authentic, what you see is what you get. I was very transparent with my team. Mm. You know, I started off with a team of me and one other person, and as I exited my business two weeks ago, it's a team of 420 people. Mm. But no matter what the size of it was. I shared where I was at with my health. Obviously we worked in health. Yeah. But I let people know, so I felt really passionate about educating them along the way. Mm. Like I'm canceling my meetings today because it's not a good day for me. I'm exhausted. I'm not thinking clearly, and I wanna show up for you. Yeah. In a way that you deserve. 'cause you're an awesome team member. Yeah. And I wanna help guide you or make the best decision together. So we're gonna need to reschedule this till Friday. And I found that people were like, cool. But if I had probably done it differently, it would've made people feel more insecure and maybe been like, well, should we even be working for this lady that's sick? Do you know what I mean? Right, right. So I think I've been very transparent and forthcoming about where I was as their, as their boss. Yeah. I mean

Speaker 2:00:28:30

that right there. Everybody like that right there. Like I feel like in general we all wish we had more space and agency in advocating in that way for ourselves and for whatever businesses we have. I'm curious, as you grew into that role of, in your business, did your advocacy for yourself, health wise. Really amplify how you were able to show up in your business?

Brenda Snow:00:29:02

A hundred percent. It absolutely did. It absolutely did. Because it's kind of like these stages in the books we were talking about, you know, you're processing it more, you're owning it more, you're understanding yourself more. Mm-hmm. You're getting familiar with your. You know, your boundaries, your barriers, your overall health. You know, as I had to go, lots of places to meet with prospective clients, and you're on a plane every other day. Okay. I did that because that was what was expected, and then I had to say to myself, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, you can't do a plane every day. Yeah. Here's another great example. I just had a two week book tour that darn near killed me. Oh my. I mean, I, it was a plane every day across the country. The US twice and once overseas. I was like afterwards, talked to my team and said, no, no, no, no, no. I'd forgotten. We, we need to schedule some down days in here. Yes. I gotta go to bed. Yes. Because I really, I mean, I came back from that and I did not move. Out of the bed for 48 hours. But this is another great example of the rinse repeat cycle. Yes, I know this, but I did it anyways because I was excited and passionate. Yeah. And then I had the little gentle reminder, hello, you need a little bit more rest. Mm-hmm. And so now as I'm looking at the next month, I have built in that time to just save. Come on. Practice what you preach, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2:00:30:30

Yeah. It's you're, yes, absolutely. I think especially when you're passionate and excited about it, I think, yeah. There's two places in our lives. I think we can, to your point, there's naysayers or there's people who are saying, you can't do it that way because that's not how it's done in business. Yeah. Or that's not how we do things in the professional space. Right. So you have that noise and then you have your own. You're own like mm-hmm. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so passionate. And then you're ignoring the body who is saying yo, we gotta slow this down. Exactly right. Yeah.

Speaker 3:00:31:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2:00:31:08

Yeah. So I'm curious for, for those that are listening, who might be in this. Space of growth because I find that for my clients specifically within the space of growth and scaling, yeah, a hundred percent. They, they move away from some of the boundaries and things that they have in place because of those two examples I just shared, which is like, you're excited and then you have a world telling you you can't keep sustaining growth and scaling. Mm-hmm. If you don't just sacrifice more of what your body needs. So I'm curious how, what would you share with someone who's in that space right now?

Brenda Snow:00:31:43

Great. I love that question. So, first of all, I wanna validate that there's probably no more absolute fun in building a business than growth and scale, right? Yes. I mean, because that is a real world example of what you're doing's working. Mm-hmm. So if you're seeing growth and you're seeing scale, then you're doing something right. Mm-hmm. So first of all, KU know kudos. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because that's, that's not easy to do. So again, keep the enthusiasm, keep your recipe because now we have a proof point that it's working. Your, your, your scale and your growth is there. So keep, keep doing what you're doing. So we're drowning off those nail naysayers by just owning. The proof is in the pudding. You can see it on your p and l or you can see it in your head count, or you can see it in your overall sales or your profit margin, whatever your metric might be of, of how you're judging this. And then allow yourself to know. That if you need a hot minute, whether it's 10 or a day or whatever, that everything you've created will not fall apart in that time. It will not fall apart. It's gonna feel like it is. Absolutely control issues. I bet you everybody that's listening to this, I've also always said over the years, if you end up with a chronic condition, it's probably because you are a control freak. But that's a topic for another podcast. Totally. So anyways, just know that by you needing to do a self-care day. Or, you know, a life changing condition day, or a doctor's appointment or sitting down and having a real conversation with your family about where you're at, your business isn't gonna fall apart, your business is not gonna fall apart. And that also says this lesson, you know, when you're scaling, let's make sure that executive team, or your trusted confidant, whether it's your COO, your CFO, your veeps, your pre, whatever it is that you know, you. I always hired to my weakness, you know? Mm-hmm. There's a lot of things I'm excellent at, or I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a master. Mm-hmm. There's a ton of things that I am terrible at.

Speaker 4:00:33:58

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Snow:00:33:59

And I always looked for people. That had next level skills way better than my own,

Speaker 4:00:34:07

and

Brenda Snow:00:34:07

they were on the team because I knew like leaning into them during these times when I needed to for my health, we were in good hands. Yeah, great, great individuals.

Speaker 2:00:34:18

I love that. Such a good point I think to your story and your experience of like knowing that you can say no or you can. I have confidence in your team because of advocating, because you and your business, you're not just advocating for you. You built a business around advocacy for patients. Yeah. Yeah. So living and breathing that in your values and the way you showed up. Definitely seems like it. It applied to how you decided to grow and leverage your, like the strengths you have to help others do the same, which is so cool. So cool. Thank you. So cool. I appreciate

Brenda Snow:00:35:00

that. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been, it's been just the most incredible, you know, my daughter I think, sometimes gets somewhat annoyed because I tell her sometimes, oh, I loved doing that more than, you know, raising you. And she's like, mom. And I'm like, oh, I'm just kidding. But I think anybody that's built a business, they do. They, you feel, you feel like you, you do for your kids. It was one of my kids, you know? Mm. And, and I think it was really important to me to, to create a culture. At Snow companies of, you know, inclusiveness. It's largely, I mean, I, I, again, I've just exited, but. You know, there was a time that it was 80% women. You know, the executive team was all women, but one male. Like these things I'm very proud of people of color, people that identify, you know, gender wise, different. Like, I'm very, very, very proud of those things because I believe. That's what makes the world great, you know, is like different perspectives, different. And I don't have all the answers. I'm never gonna have all the answers. Yeah. Nobody is. Yeah. Nobody is. Yeah. But you know, if you don't, if you're not open, yeah. To other people's thoughts and perspectives, I think that limits your ability to be successful for me.

Speaker 2:00:36:20

Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. And this is something that I really found very. Just line when I was researching you, learning about you. It's your passion for storytelling. Yeah. Okay. Like that's the reason why I have a podcast like legitimately and it's a huge thing, and I have found so much healing myself and so much empowerment myself through hearing other people tell their story and then my own ability to tell my story. So how did that show up in your life and the operation of your business? How did that affect that?

Brenda Snow:00:36:56

Yeah. Well first of all, you do a great job telling stories too. I wanted to say that you're, you're wonderful. I appreciate it. Yeah, you're wonderful to listen to. You're a natural. Well, I think it was, without knowing it at the time, it's only a reflective question. I knew that when I started sharing my story at support groups and just very grassroots and organically early on before the company was founded, it was healing me. Hmm. There was so much power. I mean, there's part of my story that I, I talk about, and there is parts of my story in the book, although it is not a memoir, you know, when my daughter thought I was gonna die.

Speaker 4:00:37:34

Mm.

Brenda Snow:00:37:35

And she was five years old and it was just her and I that her biological father wasn't present in her life. And I mean, I still get tears to this day. Yeah. Looking at her face and her saying, mommy, are you gonna die? Hmm. The book opens that way and that I must have. Shared my story tens of thousands of times and cried like a baby every time I got to that point. And then one day I didn't cry as hard or as long at that part and I went back home and had like a meditative reflective moment and I thought it's because you've started to heal. It's because you started to heal. And then I thought, well, wow. Now, what if you can amplify that? What if every patient has an opportunity to share their story and move somebody else to thinking about their condition differently? Or it's a call to action, or they just don't feel so alone? Yes. You know. Then that's, that's really powerful stuff. Mm-hmm. Also, the way we learn things like the reason you read books Yeah. To kids. I mean, it's, it's proven with MRI scans and all kinds of science that you learn in the form of the parable. The Bible's written in the parable, the koran's written, you know, whatever it is. I mean, it's not a religious thing, it's just a nursery rhyme.

Speaker 4:00:38:58

Yeah.

Brenda Snow:00:38:59

A storybook. That's how we

Speaker 2:00:39:00

learn

Brenda Snow:00:39:00

what, what, that's how we think. Actually. It's, that's how our s work. It's how exactly, and it's how complicated thoughts make sense

Speaker 4:00:39:10

Yes.

Brenda Snow:00:39:11

In your brain. So, you know, you could, I, so I started to see all kinds of patients that had gone to the doctor a million times, been told in their five minute, you know, appointment and like you said, maybe handed a leaflet, but when they could see Johnny. Tell his story that had the same, you know, condition, age-related, macular degeneration and what he went through when he was blind and how he got to a place of help and acceptance or they, and that person was like, oh my God, like this is the most profound moment of my life. I thought this is what needs to be amplified.

Speaker 2:00:39:46

Hmm.

Speaker 5:00:39:48

Yeah. So

Speaker 2:00:39:50

powerful. It's interesting that a part of your story. And the healing came from the repetitiveness Yeah. Of telling it, right? Yeah. Do you think that where we are in times now, there is an aspect of that that we're missing?

Brenda Snow:00:40:11

You know, I do a little bit and, and I don't know if this is. Gonna answer it exactly maybe the way you're asking the question. So let me, let me try here and we can go back, but I think there's so much more noise. Yes. For humans today, you know, our attention spans we know have gotten shorter than even 20 years ago. You know what used to be somebody had the attention span to watch for 15 minutes is now like four.

Speaker 4:00:40:37

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Snow:00:40:37

So. We have these phones attached to our, you know, head and hip and everywhere else, and there's just a lot of incoming information all day, every day, all the time. And it's my personal belief, only my personal belief that we're struggling with the art of listening. Mm. Yep. And, yep. And how can you be understood if you don't hear? Mm. You are not listening. And when somebody is in this vulnerable state that we talked about and they're wanting you to listen, man, you got it. This is the big validator, right? Because they're gonna feel 10 times worse if you don't listen.

Speaker 4:00:41:25

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Snow:00:41:25

If you don't acknowledge their pain, their suffering, their joy, whatever it is, and you are on the phone. Or you're looking away, or your own attention span is such that you can't be emotionally available. So the art of listening I think is key. And I think it's as a country, forget chronic illness to be understood. We need to hear

Speaker 2:00:41:55

listening. Yes, I hear you. I hear you with that. I think. What I have seen very much so Brenda, in the space of that is that we're craving that. Yeah. People are craving that. I think this is why communities, smaller, niche communities are growing. They're becoming more important. I don't care how, this is my whole thing about ai. I am like, I don't care how much AI comes into the world. We're still gonna need human beings to be human beings, and we're still gonna wanna connect to each other. I, I just do not, hundred percent. You know? And so I think it's such a powerful point that you're bringing out that the listening. Key. We're not actually listening. We think we're listening. And this is very much, you know, as a patient myself. Mm-hmm. Even with our doctors, even with our healthcare team, we almost have to like sit them down and tell them how to listen to us because they're not even present. They're not even listening. And so I. When we have books and we have authors and we have leaders or thought leaders, however you wanna call us, right? Yep. That we are also listening back and mm-hmm. Providing spaces to be listened to or to be heard. Mm-hmm. And I know you've done a lot of that work with, within your company and as well outside of that. So what has that look like for you, building those spaces for people to be listened to and connect?

Brenda Snow:00:43:30

Yeah. You know, like really humbled beyond belief and beyond measure it. It's, I think it's sacred, you know? Mm. Like sometimes, you know, I'm a stranger and two hours later, you know, your deepest, darkest secrets and emotions and the best thing, you know, you're, you're, you're feeling comfortable to do that. But again, I think it's because. I make people feel comfortable. So again, listening, making people feel comfortable, being open yourself. I will share, you know, all, all of my things and they're, they're not all great, you know? Mm-hmm. But that this is also normal. Yeah. So. I think it's, it is having, having that space for people. I mean, yes. When you talk about like online communities and all kinds of things, you know, there's also some simple rules of engagement. Be kind. Yes. You know? Yes. Like literally be kind. One of my biggest insecurities about launching the book, and I don't have many honestly, and it's taken me to become old to, to get rid of all the insecurities, but, was the trolls. Mm-hmm. You know, it was the people that it's like, and you know, it's like my parents when I was growing up, say, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. And kind of never truer words, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, kindness, people need you to show up, kind. People need you, you to show up with a sense of gratitude. And then I think you, these things can happen a lot more organically. Mm. Where you can have the opportunity to educate. Be educated. Yeah. And you know, now that I really look to like a lot of my philanthropic work and, you know, give back, not only with, with, with, you know, financial resources, but my time resources, people are so appreciative.

Speaker 4:00:45:22

Mm-hmm. You know,

Brenda Snow:00:45:23

they really, really are. And it's simple act of kindness again. And when you see somebody that's so. Appreciative because you showed up or because you cared, you, because you did something. I think these things are very, they, they like, I'll use my last word. They snowball. Mm. You know, they, they, they, they create synergies. They really do. And, and that's the kind of stuff that I think we need. As people living with chronic conditions to, to be our cups filled up and to be able to keep giving back in ways. But I think it also just, it spreads and it magnifies,

Speaker 2:00:46:06

yeah. Yeah. The baby

Brenda Snow:00:46:07

steps.

Speaker 2:00:46:07

The baby steps, the ripple effects everything. Yeah. You know? Is, is there, I have a question that I ask everyone, and I usually ask it a little later, but I'm gonna ask it now. What is something that when you to, and this is kind of two prong, you can answer this both ways honestly. Sure. What is something that you thought was true when you were first diagnosed that you no longer believe is true?

Brenda Snow:00:46:36

Well, I think when I was first diagnosed, I thought I was gonna absolutely have a terrible, miserable life.

Speaker 4:00:46:42

Mm.

Brenda Snow:00:46:43

And that why would I even wanna continue going on? Mm. Like this was such a horrible diagnosis and the news I got from various neurologists, from being misdiagnosed to painting a very bleak picture for my life. Honestly, if I didn't have my daughter. And know that she needed a mother, like I really thought there was nothing worth living for. And I know that to be categorically inaccurate, never true, totally wrong. It's false. You know, as many ways that I can condemn that thought. So that's, that's probably the biggest one. And it's a heavy one.

Speaker 2:00:47:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can feel that I can relate to that in a lot of different ways. Yeah. It's scary to have that be your first, you know, belief and it's, and at the time it feels very real, right? It feels it does. Mm-hmm. So, unbelievably real. And then when you learn that it's not, that it is a relief, I think it also lightens what we experience with our chronic, with our chronic illnesses. Like the, the, the level of intensity that they have. They felt, to me personally, lighter. I don't know if that's an experience, but I feel like once you let go of that falseness, it's, it shifts everything. Right. It does. Yeah. And the,

Brenda Snow:00:48:15

you know, the snow family creed, and I got so sick and tired of hearing it from my father, and it was so simple, but it was like, stay positive, Bren, you know, always stay positive, find the positive thing in all of this. And, you know, I remember one time looking at him, this is years ago, and just losing it, just being like, it's not being confident. Mm-hmm. You know, but like, he was right. Mm. Like trying to find. That one nugget to hold onto mm-hmm. Is exactly what you said. Nikita lightens everything.

Speaker 2:00:48:45

Yeah. And you know, to your, to your point with that, I, I have, I have a, I don't know how you describe it, but I have a dance with that. Right. A dance with. Being okay with sometimes it truly 100% sucks and I am not gonna see the positive and I'm okay that I don't see the positive right now. Yep, okay. It just sucks. And then also I always say it's never this or it's always, and then also, yeah, there is something powerful and being like, yeah, that was the worst day of my life and I'm still here. Right. Yeah. Like there is an aspect of that. Yeah. And I think we, to your point, we talk like full circle in this conversation. We have to give all of us permission to be riding those waves, how they come. Mm-hmm. And not judge someone. Yeah. On whether or not they're just only seeing right now the funnel of negativity. Yep. Because it is what their lived experience is right now. Yeah. And also hope that they get to see some light later. Exactly. I'm not shame them

Brenda Snow:00:49:53

for either way, you know? Exactly. Yeah. I, I the judgment, I have no tolerance for Yeah. No room. And, you know, as I've been out speaking about the book, if that's the one thing I could say is, you know, hope you're not alone and, you know, just do not feel judged. Do not take on that guilt. Do not take on any of that because it's, it's just, it's just. It just will, it can just eat you alive. Yeah. You know? And any and anybody that really loves you and is really worth having in your inner circle isn't gonna judge you. Yeah. And the ones that do. That's what I have to say. She said

Speaker 3:00:50:30

she, yeah,

Brenda Snow:00:50:31

yeah,

Speaker 3:00:50:31

yeah. You guys

Speaker 2:00:50:32

wanted to check out the video part of that because it's a very visual moment there. Yeah.

Brenda Snow:00:50:37

Sticking out. Sticking out my tongue, making the sound. Exactly. I

Speaker 2:00:50:41

love it. I love it. Okay, and then lastly, what is something true about business? What is something that you thought was true about business? That is no. You are like, yeah, that's not true. Oh

Brenda Snow:00:50:52

boy,

Speaker 2:00:50:52

a ton,

Brenda Snow:00:50:53

right? Oh, let's see. Well, let's see. Something that I thought was true about business that I found out that it wasn't true, I think I thought it would be a lot easier to manage large teams of people. Than it turned out to be. Mm-hmm. And I'm talking about implementing best in class, you know, training and development opportunities. Mm-hmm. Because when you're smaller, you as the founder or the entrepreneur are really touching everybody and everything. Mm-hmm. And this osmosis is happening. Mm-hmm. And this knowledge transfer is happening. Mm-hmm. And that energy is happening and you're just like all in it. Once you've hit about, at least for me in my business, that 80 people mark, 80, 80 people. I wasn't, it was just humanly, it was just not possible, you know? Mm. And back to that scale, but it was like, well, how do we infuse in all this next generation of great team members

Speaker 4:00:52:03

mm-hmm.

Brenda Snow:00:52:03

All of the things. That this kind of first group had, and I thought that would be easy and it wasn't. Mm. So keeping the culture alive, keeping that story alive, keeping the purpose alive, keeping the quality and the excellence. Mm, alive that's very hard, remains challenging. And it's something again, as the founder, the CEO, whatever your job that you really can't take your eye off of because. That is the one thing I found out that like, nobody's gonna do it quite like you either. Or if it's not an important initiative from your desk, it's not gonna be an important initiative from anybody's desk.

Speaker 2:00:52:41

Mm. So interesting. That is so interesting. It's, it's kind of, and, and a reflection of a advocacy for yourself. Like no one is gonna know what your body feels. And you can be in a room of doctors and trying, they're telling you what the, you know, paper says that it says, but you're like, no, but my body is saying different or I'm feeling it different. Only you can really advocate to that level, right? And so trying to infuse that into a business where like, I know you think that's the way we need to go, but I know in my bones that this is how we need to do it. And you may not agree because you don't see the vision. And that's what I hear you saying it was that it's like a lot more challenging over time as you add more people into that vision. Yeah. To expand on that.

Brenda Snow:00:53:31

Yeah. And keeping those core competencies, you know, alive and nurtured and making sure that kind of like the success of how you did things and why you did things that got you here. You know, we're not throwing the baby out with the bath water, right? Mm. Mm-hmm. That, that, that's continuing to do. And I, I, I find that the more people on the team, it's not impossible. Just becomes harder to do. Yeah. And you have to come up with different strategies to do it. 'cause you can't do it all.

Speaker 2:00:54:02

Yeah. I heard this to your point, I heard this from Sarah, I wanna say it's Sarah Blakely. Spanx, the CEO of Spanx. Yeah. She's great. And she was saying, you know, depending on how you scale is. On like how diluted your, your thoughts and your values become, especially if you're taking on investors and all those kind of things, and why her business felt like she did so well is because she didn't do that at the beginning and it took her a long time, decade. Yeah, over a decade to get to that point. And so yeah, her vision kept staying clear to what she wanted it to be. And I think that's an interesting thought. I think that's right too, right? I think that's an interesting thought as we think about our businesses and how do we finagle, that's a whole nother conversation. Right on. It is okay if you are going to be growing. With a, a smaller team, how do we create systems and things around you so that you're not sacrificing yourself completely and your wellbeing? So that's a, that's an interesting thought, but I appreciate you sharing that with me, that that's amazing. Love that we can question, we can make

Brenda Snow:00:55:08

a list together and come back and talk about it. We

Speaker 2:00:55:10

totally can. We totally can. Well, please let us know how. Everyone can find you. We know we'll have everything in the show notes. Sure. But I always like to have the guests share with us how they can find you and how they can support some of the initiatives you're in are up doing right now. Well,

Brenda Snow:00:55:26

that's, that's, that's very, very kind. So, brenda snow.com is, is the website. I think it's will be looking fancy and new and refreshed here in the near future, but you can also get ahold of me through there. You can. Contact me and, and I will get an email and I will respond to you. And then I think, you know, the book is really helpful too. I just do want people to know that all of the proceeds that I receive will be donated to health related charities. So I look forward to announcing that, you know, at the end of the year and. Nikita, if you have any special ones, all of the lovely people that have had me on the podcast, I'd love to know. Yes. So that I can make sure that some of those contributions go to things that you're passionate about. Absolutely. Because I do appreciate the time and your audience. And the last thing I would say is, you know, never, ever, ever. Let one of these insidious life changing chronic illnesses define who you are. Mm. Because you're awesome just the way you are. Mm. And the sooner that you like, come to terms with that and own that, you're gonna be just, you know, feeling so much better and achieving all of the things that you deserve to be achieving.

Speaker 2:00:56:43

I love that. Well, thank you so much, Brenda. Thank. Thank you too. This was lovely. I enjoyed it so much.

Speaker 5:00:56:48

Me too. Sending you big kiss. Same here. Same here. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Take care. Bye y'all. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2:00:57:03

That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness. If you would like to start and grow an online coaching business with me, head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call, and learn how to make money with chronic illness. You can also check out our website at ww dot crafted to thrive.com for this episode's, show notes and join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business. While living with chronic illness, until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.